The Caged Bird Tweets of Freedom: Black Jewish Life and Twitter, with Jesi Taylor Cruz
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“It's really upsetting when people sometimes assume because I am Black that fighting antisemitism is not a priority for me, as if it's this hierarchy in activism, when it just doesn't work like that at all. In the same way that there's not really a hierarchy of our identities, they just intersect.”
-Jesi Taylor Cruz
Clarissa talks to journalist and graduate student of philosophy Jesi Taylor Cruz about her paper “The Caged Bird Tweets of Freedom: On the Digital Hypervisibility of Black Jewish life.” They discuss race and racism in the Jewish community, and the ways in which digital spaces, and Black, Jewish Twitter (Jwitter), in particular, has offered Black Jews a way to build community on a global scale.
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On Wandering is produced and presented by Clarissa Marks, with intro music by Ketsa and outro music by Gillicuddy.
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TRANSCRIPT
Jesi Taylor Cruz: It's really upsetting when people sometimes assume because I am Black that fighting antisemitism is not a priority for me, as if it's this hierarchy in activism, when it just doesn't work like that at all. In the same way that there's not really a hierarchy of our identities, they just intersect.
Clarissa Marks: I’m Clarissa Marks, and you are listening to On Wandering. This past year, as America has experienced what some have called a racial awakening many Black Jews in particular attest to experiencing racism both from the non-Jewish world, and in Jewish spaces. One of the places where I’ve been able to meet and listen to more Black Jews has been one of my new favorite hangout spots – Jewish Twitter, or Jwitter for short. That’s where I met my guest today, Jesi Taylor Cruz. Jesi is a freelance journalist, researcher and graduate student of philosophy at the City University of New York. Their work focusses on critical race theory, political theory, identity, discard theory, and they’ve released a paper called “The Caged Bird Tweets of Freedom: On the Digital Hypervisibility of Black Jewish life.” Their paper highlights the ways in which digital spaces, and Black, Jewish Twitter, in particular, has offered Black Jews a way to build community on a global scale. Jesi and I talked about her paper as well as her personal experience as a Black Jew online and offline. And, just a note, this was recorded during the pandemic while Jesi was home with a kiddo, so you may hear some cute, playtime noises going on in the background. So without further ado, here’s my conversation with Jesi Taylor Cruz.
Thank you so much for being here today.
JC: Thank you for having me on. So excited.
CM: Me too. So I wanted to start with talking about how we actually met through the special corner of the internet, which is Twitter and specifically Jwitter, I think. And that's what we're going to be talking about a bit today. So I was hoping you could help describe what is Jwitter and specifically Black Jwitter.
JC: So I guess in the simplest terms, Jwitter is just the space on the social media platform called Twitter where the Jews congregate. Yeah. And then within that, there are, yeah, the Black shoes that congregate there too. And sometimes they use certain hashtags to kind of signal that that's who their target audience is. It's a little community.
CM: Yeah. And it's not like it's a particular website. It's not like you log in to a specialTwitter. It's just when you follow enough people, you start to kind of have a community there. And I'm wondering too, I think you do a great job of this in the paper, if you could help us frame, who are we talking about when we're talking about Black Jews?
JC: Yeah. So this one always gets a little tricky because sometimes depending on who you're talking to, you can say Black Jew or Black Jewish person and they'll assume you're talking about Black Hebrew Israelites, and that's not who I'm talking about. I'm talking about people who are Jewish and also a part of the African diaspora. So they're either Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, or Orthodox and are also part of the African diaspora.
CM: I think you also made the point that there are folks who might just feel like they're culturally [Jewish] or identify as culturally Jewish, but be part of the African diaspora.
JC: Exactly, exactly. They could also identify as atheist or agnostic or something else too, but yeah.
CM: Got it. So your paper specifically talks about the hashtag Black Shabbat, that popped up on Twitter a little while back. Can you tell me, what's the story behind this hashtag? Where did it come from?
JC: So, yeah, it was started by Rebecca Pierce, who I've been following on Twitter for a while now. And I stumbled upon it last year, one day. It just so happened to be during a time when I was feeling lost alone, et cetera, confused about where I was spiritually, religiously, et cetera. And I saw a tweet that had the hashtag Black Shabbat and I was like, 'wait a second. What is this corner of Twitter that I've never heard of before? What is this, what is this?' So then I clicked the hashtag to see more. And that's when I saw that it was really just a collection of tweets by primarily Black Jews who were just tweeting about their experiences, sharing information, and just generally writing about things related to the Black Jewish experience. And I was so happy that I found it because offline I'm just not a part of, I mean, technically a Jewish community period, but I don't really have that many Black Jewish people in my life. So it was nice.
CM: Was this something that...I don't know if I saw the original tweet, was this something that Rebecca Pierce posted with kind of a framing like "this is how you should use the hashtag" or did she just kind of put it out there one day and then started copying it?
JC: So she basically put it out there and said something like, "Hey, this has been a really rough week for Black Jews. We're coming up on the end of the week. Why don't we get the hashtag Black Shabbat going and just share, you know, words of encouragement, et cetera, or just something to uplift the lives of Black Jews or amplify the voices of Black Jews and just use the hashtag."
CM: Yeah. Do you remember what was going on that week?
JC: So what's interesting is I don't exactly remember what was going on that week and when I was writing the paper, I was even trying to figure out exactly what was happening. But when I did that, I did find that it did happen to be during the anniversary of a really a violent event that happened in Brooklyn years before. That was interesting to find out, but I don't remember the specific thing that she was referring to.
CM: And do you have a sense of how often Black Shabbat was used? I think you had maybe hundreds of examples that you found in your paper.
JC: It was more... I'll put it like this: I feel like there were definitely a lot more retweets than there were original tweets, but there were somewhere around the hundreds, but a lot more retreats, like thousands of retweets and likes and stuff like that. Quote tweets, et cetera.
CM: And then you broke down the categories, you started categorizing these tweets, which I loved. I think your three categories were testimony, solidarity or historical. Can you tell me about what those categories are and give me some examples?
JC: Sure. So for the historical ones, it was really just tweets that had something to do with some type of moment in history or a historical figure or just something that was relaying some type of historical information that had something to do with Black Jewish people. Then solidarity was one that didn't necessarily have to be tweeted by somebody who was a Black Jew, but it was just like showing, I mean, solidarity with them. And then for the testimony one, those are the tweets that are specifically by Black Jews who are tweeting out something related to the experiences of Black Jews.
CM: What kind of experiences were they talking about?
JC: Some of them involved, what it's like to experience both anti-Blackness and antisemitism at the same time, amongst other types of discrimination and such, but some of them were really just expressing thankfulness for Black Twitter and how it allowed them to meet other people with shared experiences. And then there were also some that were just like, Hey, Black Jews exist. Something that was just matter of fact. Like, we're here don't erase our identities, et cetera. And then for the solidarity ones, a lot of them were so great. It was a lot of people that were either calling out their favorite Black rabbis or just doing like lists of people to follow who are Black and Jewish and who are like writing about their experiences. And yeah, it was like a nice array of tweets and the majority of them were really great.
CM: How did you feel personally when you were looking through all of these tweets?
JC: I mostly just felt so seen cause it was, it's just not, it's just not stuff that I'd heard before, period. Yeah. In person before the year 2019, I met maybe one other Black Jew, maybe, maybe two but only one comes to mind before 2019 as I said. So it was just, it was just nice to see so many other people and I didn't feel so alone. And then I felt even more affirmed just seeing just like the larger Jewish, the larger Jwitter community chime in and express solidarity.
CM: So I wanted to talk about that a little bit because one of the themes that I noticed in your paper that came up a lot is the sense of isolation. Because of the small number of Black Jews in the world, it's really hard for Black Jews to meet each other and they might be separated by space and time. And I was just hoping you could talk a little bit more about how Black Jwitter and Black shabbat factor into that feeling of, "I don't know any other Black Jews."
JC: Yeah. So it's one thing to just like, not see yourself in the community, like in person, offline. And then it's just another to not really see yourself reflected in any texts or, you know, like published articles by people in seminaries and rabbinical school and such, or just going to a service somewhere, or a Seder and doesn't knowing that like, you're just going to be the only Black person in the room, which isn't necessarily even like a bad thing. Like it's not to say that going to service or going to these events are bad because there are no other Black Jews. It's nothing like that. It's just, it just feels nice. I don't know, to feel like you're not the only one that's going to be having the unique experiences there. So finding all of these people online is really just like, [sighs] "Okay, wow, not only are other people experiencing so many similar things that I am, they also have kind of similar journeys, or they've had to also find ways of overcoming very specific things that they're feeling in the community." Or just honestly, being able to know that I can find somebody who's going to read what I say and be like, "Wow. Yeah. That's, that's exactly what it is." Instead of having somebody say, "Well, have you ever thought..." Or something like that, you know, just trying to play devil's advocate or invalidate something about your experience. And it's, it's a nice. I'm the type of person who is constantly challenging my own beliefs and interrogating my belief systems. And it's nice to be able to do that about issues related to like race, racism, et cetera, with other Black people. There's just a lot less to worry about in terms of, are they speaking from a place of bias? Are they impacted by anti-Blackness when they're making this critique of something I'm saying right now. And it's just a whole, it's just a very different thing. And it's really refreshing and nice.
CM: It sounds like you're able to find people who you know have a similar lens to how you view the world. Hearing what you say about just being able to walk into a space and know that there are other people coming from your point of view in your background feels super affirming. It reminds me a lot of how I feel when I'm not around other Jews in general for a long time, and then just the relief that you feel when you run into someone else who's Jewish and you're like, "Oh, that's right. You get my jokes, you know the same political issues that I have to think about every day and how people don't understand me.
JC: Exactly. You don't have to tip toe around some things too. You don't have to do that extra like, oh great, I know I'm going to have to unpack this for five minutes before we can even start the conversation.
CM: Yeah, totally. I'm wondering too, when you say that you have to unpack things for other people or that you get faced with people who are trying to play devil's advocate, there was a really interesting line in your paper where you talked about how with Black Twitter, Black, Jewish Twitter, there's just some relief in visibility and not having to prove that Black Jews exist. I think you talked a little bit about how both folks in the Black community and the Jewish community don't believe Black Jews exist and get very quizzical...
JC: [Laughs]
CM: I was wondering if you feel comfortable, sharing from your experience or just in general.... I mean, in general, I grew up not knowing any Black Jews and still, now that I work in the Jewish community, I still don't know very many. And I'm surprised by how many white Jews are not aware that this is an issue because they also don't know any Black Jews.
JC: So I guess an example in the Black community. When I'm speaking to other Black people who are religious, there's usually just this assumption that you're either Muslim or Southern Baptist or some type of Christian. And I mean, for many reasons, that's not a good thing to assume. You don't want to assume anything about anybody. It always turns into this whole conversation where they'll be like, "wait, what do you mean?" And I'll be like, "I mean exactly what I said. I don't get what it is I'm supposed to be explaining to you right now. I'm Jewish. And then it'd be like," but...?" And it's just this confusion. It's so visible on their faces immediately. And I feel it just stems mostly from this prevailing idea that Jews are white, which is, I mean, even in saying that it's like a whole loaded, potentially a-historical claim to even make, you know what I mean? It's just shocks people. It's strange.
CM: It sounds like it's not even...it's not aggressive, like someone's coming over and saying, "you don't exist. I don't believe you," but you just constantly have to do the education.
JC: So that's the thing. When I'm talking to Black people, it's like that. Often when I'm talking to Jewish people is when it's kind of like, "I don't know. I don't know." That's when it usually goes into the, "Oh, HOW are you Jewish?" So I feel like when I'm talking to like other Black people, they are mostly just like, "interesting. You're Jewish. Tell me more." But then when I'm talking to other Jewish people, they're like, "okay, HOW?" It's always, "Okay, so you're a convert," or "you're mixed," or something like that. It always goes into this whole other thing, which is...yeah.
CM: Yeah. They suddenly start investigating your whole family tree and personal story. Oh, that's so obnoxious. I'm so sorry you've had to deal with that. Do you have any thoughts about where that comes from? I mean, I know I have a lot of thoughts, but do you have any ideas?
JC: I feel like a lot of it is honestly, probably just not seeing many, I guess, and just it not clicking or something like that. Actually yesterday I was looking into so I want to homeschool, but I was looking into different 3-K's in my area 'cause that's coming up soon. And one of the ones near me happens to be this Yeshiva. And I was looking at pictures of the students and such. And I was just like, "oh my gosh, of course. There's not a single Brown or Black person in any of these photos." And then it sent me on this spiral where I was like, wow, part of me thinks it would be so cool to send my kid there. But then part of me is like, oh gosh, what if I'm setting them up to, I don't know, deal with anything like that. But it starts with that too, where it's like, if you really just don't see anybody that doesn't look like you in those spaces, you might start to normalize the idea that they're just not a part of your community or something. But now I feel like it's a little bit different just because there are so many more visible, famous Black Jews. So it's not as much of a thing anymore, but then there's still the thing where if, we're being real, the majority of them are not converts. So then there's an interesting conversation to be had there because a lot of them do tend to be biracial. And so then it's just a complicated thing.
CM: I feel like in general, in the Jewish world, there's this idea of, "well, we're special, right? Like we're the chosen people, we're a secret club, and you have to be ready to take on all of the crap that we deal with if you want to be part of this club." I wonder if that's where some of the pushback and questioning comes from. Not that, that makes it better or excusable.
JC: I know what you mean though.
CM: But I feel like that's a factor, but then also you do a really interesting thing at the end of the paper where you highlight this conflict that happened in Crown Heights between the Black community and the Hassidic community. Could you tell me a little bit about what that was and why you decided to highlight that as an example?
JC: So the reason I included it was partly because I found out, like I was saying earlier that it happened to take place like almost exactly to the day of the creation of the Black Shabbat hashtag. Because when I was to figure out what happened that day, and then of course, when I Googled the date, that was the first thing that came up and I was like, "wow, okay. Of course, this is the first thing to come up." When I searched for this, I want to say it was the late nineties, it was Crown Heights, Brooklyn. And I mean, I'd say it was just part of a long timeline of the media categorizing, civil unrest and a diverse community as, "this is the Black community versus the Jewish community. There was bloodshed, there was fighting, there were arrests made, there were riots. And the problem is that the Black community and the Jewish community are just in a war." I mean, clearly there's layers there to unpack, but when I was reading journal articles and newspaper articles from that time, it was just so interesting to just see that same narrative just being perpetuated by everybody. And throughout the whole thing, I was just hoping I came across like one article, and maybe there is one and I didn't happen to find it, but I was just hoping to see one article that mentioned at any point, we spoke to Black people in the Jewish community who had something to say about this or something like that. And it didn't happen.
CM: So, these were some riots in the nineties. And the point that I thought that you made that was really interesting was it was framed as the Black community versus the Jewish community, but that neither community understood that this was actually a larger world conflict that had to do with the history of white supremacy.
JC: That's one thing that I feel like gets lost in so many of these conversations that happen, whether it's on Twitter, offline, whatever it is, there so much focus on, "so many Black people are, anti-Semitic so many Jewish people are anti-Black" and it's never, everybody's literally focusing on all of these things because white supremacy is winning. And that's not to say that there is not antisemitism in the Black community. And it is not to say that there is not anti-Blackness in the Jewish community. It's just to say that systemic antisemitism and systemic anti-Blackness work in such a way that conflicts between the two groups are just going to take precedence over the actual target, which is white violence. And it's terrifying how, well-designed, those systems are because they're just working so well, they're working so well and it's scary. It's and honestly, it's really scary.
CM: And that these two groups are focused on finding each other when really they're both dealing with a history of living in a white, Christian dominant society that has hurt their economic prospects, hurt their health prospects...
JC: And literally tried to wipe them off the face of the earth.
CM: Right. And when you were saying you were looking for, "can someone please just interview a Black Jewish person?" I think what you're sharing is that you see the testimony of Black Jews about their lived experience as something that's really important for us to hear for both groups, for both of our betterment. Can you say more about that? Where do you think we need to hear from Black Jewish individuals?
JC: The first thing that came to mind was I think it would be great if more Black people realized that in some cases, well, I mean, arguably in all cases, antisemitism is anti-Blackness, simply due to the fact that there are Black Jews. And I think that if more I see, but then I want to take a step back too, because there are just so many dangerous conspiracy theories that are now in the mainstream, and that are believed by people that are elected officials, that are deeply antisemitic that are now so normalized, that it's almost like before we can even have these important conversations about the need to unpack and eliminate people's antisemitism, we have to address that first. And that's so frustrating. One, I wish my Jewish people realized that antisemitism, fighting antisemitism is a priority for me. It is one of the most important things that I try to educate people about. And it's really upsetting when people sometimes assume that because I am Black, that fighting antisemitism is not a priority for me as if it's like this hierarchy in activism when it just doesn't work like that at all. In the same way that there's not really a hierarchy of our identities, they just intersect. It's the same with causes that we fight for. And I think that's one thing I would really like people to know. And then another thing that I'd like people to know is just that you really can't make assumptions about what people's politics are just because you find out that they're Jewish, you really have no idea what they actually believe when it comes to anything, unless you actually ask them. So I think another thing is before you try to make assumptions about or claims about any person that is a Black Jew, just ask them, Be kind, maybe they'll say no, but get some clarification before you make assumptions. I feel like those are the most important things.
CM: I love how you frame the fact of like the fact that you are Black and Jewish is enough to just blow up the misconception that Jews are all the same. It's just like, "I'm here. Therefore we are diverse."
JC: Yes, exactly.
CM: Yeah. And I love that you brought up too, that, that idea of just because you're Black and Jewish doesn't mean you don't care about antisemitism because I think you're right that that does get weaponized a lot. This idea of, in the more liberal, advocacy communities, that we have to be fighting for one thing or another. We either have to focus on racism or focus on antisemitism. We can't do both at the same time...
JC: When we totally can and we have to. We can't just be single cause people when all of the causes are inextricably linked together.
CM: Oh man. That felt good hearing that. I needed to hear that too.
JC: It's an important thing to just think about periods. Cause it goes back to, I guess one downside to social media is that sometimes people will read one tweet, or one Instagram post, and think that they know everything about your whole philosophy of life when it's really just like a snippet of a larger idea, belief, conversation, et cetera. And I think people need to be a lot more honest about the fact that we can care about a lot of things at once. And just because we're not putting something at the forefront this second doesn't mean that we didn't spend whatever many years fighting for it before. It just so happens at this moment, maybe, we're focusing on something specific.
CM: Talking about having multiple identities and embracing that, you relate the cultural importance of braiding hair in the Black community to braiding Challah dough in Jewish culture. I wanted to ask you to talk about that association a little bit and what that means for you.
JC: So I don't remember exactly the day that the thought came to me, but I know when it came to me, I was like preparing dough and I just had this weird flashback to just like being in the kitchen with my grandma, 'cause she used to do this like thing where she would wet a washcloth, and then put it over my hair, and then braid it. Something about the imagery, just the care and attention to detail, and then just the larger history of the act of braiding and both cultures, it was just like, "Whoa, oh my gosh, this is, this is an interesting connection."
CM: I thought that was such a highlight of a beautiful moment that can come from having two cultural identities and blending them. So it's not always about, "oh, how do I deal with the oppression of both these groups," but also what is so amazing when you can bring in the art and the traditions from two cultures together and find similarities.
JC: One thing I'm waiting for is for more people to talk about the similarities between Black comedians and Jewish comedians and the way that they approach making sense of trauma on stage, that's something I'm waiting for somebody to talk about.
CM: That sounds amazing. Are you going to be the person to talk about it?
JC: Maybe!
CM: Who are the comedians you're thinking of right now? Like if you had just put two together?
JC: Richard Pryor and...Oh gosh, he's a problematic one. And, not even technically on the stage, but Woody Allen came to mind, but that's a complicated one.
CM: So many comedians are complicated.
JC: I know they're all so complicated. I really had to stop because the first name that came to mind, I was like, "Oh no, I don't even know."
CM: But it would be fascinating. I keep thinking, one thing that really blew my mind was Beyonce's Lemonade. And I'm just like, what would a Jewish version of Lemonade look like? Can somebody please make this? Or make a Black Jewish version or something like that?
JC: Oh my gosh, imagine. Yeah. I've always wondered like what it would be like if there was a Black Broad City
CM: That would be so much fun!
JC: Or just like a more diverse Broad City. Just like, so many Jews of so many different backgrounds getting into mischief.
CM: Somebody please make these things! We're waiting for this art.
JC: And we have Tiffany Haddish now. So come on, we can do this.
CM: Yes, absolutely. We have the people. I know that you wanted to chat about skin tone. I just want to make sure that I gave you a chance to share, because you've mentioned that skin tone and complexion is an important factor in Black Jewish identity. And so I just wanted to touch base and find out if you could tell me a little bit more about that.
JC: I guess I'll give a little bit of background. So up until I was 15-ish, I was one skin color and I was just like a darker, brown person. Just dark Brown skin. That was my skin color. And then when I was 15, I was diagnosed with a skin disorder called vitiligo, which is, yes, the thing Michael Jackson had. And since then I've slowly been losing pigment. And now I'm like 50/50 brown skin, white skin, but on my face, and if my hair is covered, my face just looks white. But I mean, I'm clearly Black, like it's, it's a whole thing, but skin tone does play a difference in how people will race you, which is interesting. But so I feel like even how I navigate life as a Black Jewish person is necessarily going to be different than somebody who, one has one skin color, but two has a darker complexion because of how anti-Blackness works.
CM: In the American Jewish community. That probably goes back to that questioning that white Jews have of what your parentage is. So if someone is a lighter skin color, but obviously or seems to look like they might have African ancestry, white Jews might start making assumptions of, "well, you must be mixed. You must have Jewish family or ancestry." And if you're a darker skin color, then maybe there are more questions about "how are you Jewish? Did you convert?
JC: Exactly.
CM: I think that you're right, that in general in the Jewish community, there are a lot of questions that we might have about appearance. There's a lot of discussion about does someone look Jewish. Can someone quote-unquote pass for white in the U.S. Will they be identified as Jewish or other if they go to a different country? And it sounds like that discussion is even more amplified if you're a Jew of color or a Jew with African ancestry.
JC: Yeah. And what gets me is that I feel like a lot of the pushback from...sometimes I feel strange even using the phrase "white Jews," because I feel like a lot of the people who are technically identified as white Jews, the problem that they'll have is that they'll think that when we say that we're making some grand claim about who they are, like their essence...
CM: What's their DNA makeup.
JC: Exactly. And it's like, no, that's not what we're saying at all. We're not telling you who you are. We're not saying at your core, and your pure essence is white-person. That's not what we're saying. We're saying that given the ways that whiteness, as a construct functions, particularly in the United States and other places, because of the way that you happen to navigate certain spaces, you function as somebody who is white. If we go outside and I don't know, God forbid, the NYPD runs up to us for whatever reason, are they gonna look at you and think you're a white person? And if the answer is yes, then you function differently than somebody who is...So that's where the conversation is. And I feel like that gets left out of the conversations a lot. It's not about like what you're being called and what you're being labeled, because it's not about what anybody's calling you. It's not about what anybody's calling you. It's do you function in this way. And I think that's really important to be honest about that. I'll even add an interesting layer. When I did convert, I had more Brown skin and my face was still primarily Brown back then. So I wore makeup, just a little makeup to cover the white spots. So visibly, I looked Brown and even then, I was Orthodox then, and so my experiences were very interesting. Cause I feel like back then, because I was Orthodox, I didn't worry as much about dealing with anti-Blackness in the Jewish community because I was Orthodox. I feel like it it just made me feel a bit safer to be, even though I was much more visibly Black, I was also much more visibly Jewish, if that makes sense. So there was less for people to question and now it's interesting because now I have more white skin, but I also am an no longer Orthodox. So It's complex.
CM: So that's interesting. It sounds like you almost had like a defensive layer of like, "well, I'm the most Jewish you can be. You can't question this."
JC: Yeah, exactly.
CM: Do you feel like you got less questions at that point in your life than you do now?
JC: Yes. Yeah. I really do. I really, really do.
CM: That's so fascinating.
JC: Yeah. Sometimes I miss that community because I just wasn't really questioned. I was super plugged in. I ended up leaving that community because of racism, though, so that's a whole other story, but while it lasted, it was pretty great.
CM: Do you find now that you're getting more questions from the more liberal Jewish sector?
JC: For the most part, Yeah.
CM: I am so sorry that that's your experience.
JC: The thing I always just come back to though is just like, when it really comes down to it, it's, it's not even between me and those people. It's between me and something much bigger. So like, I think that's what I feel like. 'Cause the thing that changed the most with me and my relationship to Judaism is just that, it's just not about what other people think. I mean, they can say what they want, but like when it comes down to it, It's not about them. And the, the being that ultimately is going to decide is not them.
CM: Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me.
JC: Thank you for having me. This was amazing. And I'm just so glad we had this talk.
CM: That was my conversation with Jesi Taylor Cruz. You can find a link to her paper, “The Caged Bird Tweets of Freedom” in the show notes. This episode was produced by me, Clarissa Marks, with intro music by Ketsa and outgoing music by Gillicuddy. If you like the show, you can support it by sharing with a friend, or by adding a review in apple podcasts. That really does help others find us. You can connect with me on Twitter or Instagram @ClarissaRMarks. And to hear more episodes, find transcripts, or learn more about the people and media we mentioned, visit out our website, OnWandering.co. Thanks for listening and see you next time.